@stevelord if this is about the, uh, ruby picture, i 100% agree

if it's about anything else, port it ;)

@dogstar it's the 9Rails on the inside of Auschwitz Berkenau pic.

I am now used to the FQA being frankly not worth the 1s and 0s it was written in, but the 9Rails pic in particular.

@stevelord yeah, that is like, really unacceptable. i totally agree.

there are a lot of other rough edges lying around, too, that i'm sure you will discover sooner or later. i am not sure if i have the cultural clout to change the 9rails image, but i would like to start a discussion about it

i know the source tree had mein kampf in it at one point, which got replaced by the communist manifesto. it is definitely all coming from a place of wanting to scare away users & not actual fascism i hope

@stevelord erase the "definitely" in the above because i am not definitely sure about that. but the advances made in the 9front code base are important to me, and the community around it (and ##9fans, especially @henesy) have helped me a lot in getting involved

speaking of, def tagging @henesy because i am curious if he has a take on this

@dogstar @stevelord I can't speak for the person who committed it into the repo, but I took it as a reaction to the fact that Labs Plan 9 shipped other historical documents like the US Constitution and this was a response/commentary on that.

I know the Internet is allergic to context, but this was back in the days before Nazis regained prominence in the global political discourse. Nobody in the 9front community ever supported that dirt "ideology."

@khm @dogstar so just on the point of "If you think I'm a Nazi fuck you" so you know where I'm coming from. If I thought you were a Nazi I wouldn't care about your opinion, nor would I be speaking to you. I asked what the fuck, and your response helped with that. I'm trying to understand the broader issue of how and why the fuck. I take it from your comment that you didn't commit the image and have no control over the distribution, you just made it. Is that correct?

@stevelord @dogstar There are a handful of "ah yes I always hated those 9front Nazis" in the replies here. The "go fuck yourself" was for their benefit.

I didn't put the image in the FQA. I have no problem with it being there. I am not the editor of the fqa but since I host the repo I'd say I have some control.

If there's one piece of Uriel I would hope survives in 9front, it's the ability to provoke thought instead of dogma. That cannot happen without challenging people's comfort zones.

@stevelord @dogstar 9rails.jpg -> "What the fuck?" -> "Why is that here?" -> "Why would that even have been made?" is a reasonable progression, with answers at every stage.

9rails.jpg -> "ah, these people are all racist Nazis and also something about 4chan" is an idiotic, insulting response, which cannot possibly engender any response except "fuck off."

As someone who has actually gone to war against oppressive totalitarians it sort of pisses me off to be slotted among them by internet people.

@khm @dogstar Was it Uriel that committed that section? I could kind of understand not wanting to remove it if it was. If that's the case then context in the FQA might be helpful for people who stumble across it.

@stevelord @dogstar I'm not gonna participate in your little witch hunt.

@khm @dogstar I'm not witch hunting, but I get that I'm asking a lot of questions. I don't think that's unwarranted but I can understand if you don't want to answer them.

If that's the case I'll have to draw my own conclusions based on what I've seen thus far. But what I will say is that not everyone is out to get you over this. It's the kind of bold statemen where I assume by default there has to be reasons beyond "Lol Cryptonazis"

@stevelord @khm @dogstar I'll just leave this here: https://xkcd.com/1984/

Title text is also relevant. I try to keep this in mind since I often struggle to communicate my ideas properly.

@stevelord @dogstar You're going to have to draw your own conclusions no matter which questions I answer.

I note that these questions, regarding who committed what and when, are asked of me instead of the public commit logs of the relevant repositories. The conclusion *I* draw is that the answers are not as important to you as the questions. That's a witch hunt.

I (and much of the 9front community) do not generally spend much energy coddling this attitude. It's rarely worthwhile.

@stevelord there's always been suspicions about the far right/nazism around it hasn't there? I remember some people making statements about it a while back. But still - what the fuck.

@oppen I saw it yesterday and put my reaction down to me being tired, then took a look today after doing some more work on Plan9 and had the same reaction.

@stevelord someone's no doubt going to challenge me on my statement - I honestly can't remember what it was (I can barely remember what I did yesterday), but it was enough to put me off bothering with diving into it a while back.

@stevelord not a dev or user, but what's surprising here?

@pal The fact that there's no real useful information in Appendix L is unsurprising, but the pic of the inside of Auschwitz-Berkenau concentration camp in the official documentation being used as a visual metaphor for Rails is somewhat disturbing to say the least.

@libc @stevelord Never forget when the 9front frontpage was a direct parody of the 4chan frontpage. The idea of Plan 9 and smaller software basically became a cult among imageboard users for letting them go hog wild with software elitism, and cat-v was virtually an overnight hit on /g/ posters.
@HarneyB @stevelord hot take: from my systems research hat plan 9 is shit anyways (as my friend says, like all pike output)

@stevelord

I made this image. It was one of the Google Image Search results I got when I searched for Ruby on Rails. I made this picture from the absurdity. I do not regret it.

I'm sure the breathless internet pearl-clutching is cathartic, but if you think I'm a Nazi you can go fuck yourself and I mean that as strenuously and as completely as possible. Not every reference to a topic is an endorsement of that topic, and I suspect your life will be much calmer when you internalize that idea

@khm I sense you've clearly been attacked over this enough to immediately go on the defensive over someone's reaction to seeing this in an OS distribution's official documentation. There is little I could say you haven't already heard nor wouldn't have heard before.

But I will ask given that this appears to have been in there for years with the reaction you've had, why keep it there?

@stevelord I "go on the defensive" the moment I'm attacked at all; that's what defense is for.

I am not in the habit of editing myself based on other people's internet performances. I do not intend to develop such a habit, but I'm also not going to stand around and be slandered.

@stevelord

i'm not really invested, i do my stuff on my own fork of inferno. however, i have some context links that might be informative or whatever.

harmful.neocities.org/

ants.9gridchan.org/doc/mantsif

youtube.com/watch?v=-MkRuV0aCc

^ this yt link is what the "no nazis" image links to on the 9front homepage.

@xj9 @stevelord I haven't seen the harmful link before, this is actually very interesting reading

@xj9 I've seen the harmful link. To be fair aside from walls of text about what shitheads suckless are, there's not a lot in there. The stuff down the bottom about uriel is why I asked KHM if he did the commit. I also saw a 9fans thread somewhere that explained why harmful is the way it is.

@xj9 the ants stuff is new, thanks for that. The No nazis link doesn't really mean anything. The issue isn't "Is 9front made by nazis?" - it's more "How does a project even manage to get to the point where the concept of that question solidifies, then double down on it?" Nobody goes on FreeBSD's site and sees Auschwitz pics in the official docs so nobody asks the question.

@stevelord @xj9 trying for a constructive response after learning a bunch in this thread (a new user myself)

freebsd is a product and 9front isn't - it's a community centered around a plan9 fork. there are injokes that can be seen as distasteful, but a verbal complaint from an outsider isn't the biggest sway. in general it's seen as a good thing if someone bounces off the surface level like this, because it can indicate that they weren't really invested in the project

@stevelord @xj9 i've only seen the community be supportive to people that show up in good faith and a genuine interest - the lead devs are jewish people of german descent, and i'm a dumbass, and it all works ok.

i've seen a lot more distasteful community dynamics right around here on merveilles - look at urbit for an example of implementing a tyranny while trying to present it as squeaky-clean ;)

@stevelord @xj9 anyway tl;dr: the surface level of things is only the surface level of things. this is important to some communities, and not to others. i see it like openbsd's "weaponized comic sans" but more extreme. i'm not a fan of the auschwitz pic but i still treasure the community around this software.

@dogstar @xj9 If only surface level things are visible that is all people will see. When something like that pops up, it blocks people. It's unreasonable to expect people to look past that image to prove their investment to a community that thinks it's ok to be there.

I spent a week in papers, taking notes on 9p, plumbing, acme, and internals. I was ok to submit updates to the FQA but there's no way in hell I want to be associated with *that*. Their project, their choice. My time, my choice.

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